Game is too vague: Questions about aspects and fertilities

SKirlasvoud
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Game is too vague: Questions about aspects and fertilities

Post by SKirlasvoud » Wed Jul 17, 2013 2:42 pm

Basically, I've unlocked a bunch of stuff and wanted to create a freestyle paradise: 5 villages, who would all slowly grow along with my unlocks in era mode. As I did however, I began to wonder how many ambassadors I would need and a quick internet search revealed that you have to think very carefully about this in advance.

Problem is, the game is dense enough that I have no idea how the more advance stuff works. The Wiki is no more usefull as there's a big leap of knowledge between the basics (first lesson: Fry an egg) and the expert stuff (Second lesson: Beef Wellington) that makes it hard for a new player like me to follow.



So here's a big list of foolish assumptions that I hope people can dispell:

The Ocean Giant has both the Domestic Animals spell and the Herd Upgrade aspect. Wiki tells me that giving the Ocean Giant a swamp ambassador in combination with any other three ambassadors, will upgrade his Domestic Animals to level 3.
The wiki also tells me that giving it three swamp ambassadors and another ambassador, will upgrade his Herd Aspect to level 3.

So... the whale is a level 3 animal. I already understand that I can probably upgrade my lowly mackerels to being whales, by casting the lvl3 Herd Upgrade on them three times. However, can't I just instantly create whales if I have the Domestic animals at lvl3? This means I'll have far greater ambassador flexibility by just upgrading Domestic Animals in this instance. If it doesn't work like that, then what's the Domestic Animals upgrade for?

_________

What is the difference between a Wolf and a Great Wolf and why do I need Great Wolfs to get bears?

Does a higher level aspect make my wolf great? Do fertilities make my Wolf great?

___________

What is up with fertilities and what is their relation to the aspects, really? Or is there none and is it simply a multiplier? Will a fertility otherwise boost my lvl1 aspect spell into becoming a lvl3? For example, will foxes with fertility, instantly skip wolves into being bears when the predator aspect is cast? If not, why not simply use upgrades?

Do my foxes turn into Great wolves with a fertility hunt aspect?

Do my wolves turn into Great wolves with a fertility hunt aspect?

What is the sequence for turning my foxes into bears then?

Do fertilities only serve to make things great, and if they do, does this mean that fertilities are useless on things that cannot become great?

Aren't improving my aspects supposed to make my things great? The game literalle says so. "Can create greater aspects". Or is that only with fertilities?

Do fertilities expire, or are they locked in after their succesful use?

What's the difference between Ocean giant's Monsoon and Forest Giant's Fertility? Monsoon simply has an Area of Effect? Should I pick one or the other?

What does a lvl 2 fertility do over a lvl 1 fertility?

__________________


The game stops giving new ambassadors after 14 of them, but this makes no sense. I have 4 giants! 14 divided by 4 is 3.5 . The wiki states that each giant gets a maximum of four?

Is it impossible to get all the aspects, spells and fertilities to a maximum?

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Touriste
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Re: Game is too vague: Questions about aspects and fertiliti

Post by Touriste » Wed Jul 17, 2013 2:47 pm

Those questions are really basics question and can be answered by experimental play.
Though, this guide might be useful, you'll need an inscription on their site to read it all and you can give feedback on this topic.
If you are at this point in questioning, I guess you will need to read this guide.

SKirlasvoud
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Re: Game is too vague: Questions about aspects and fertiliti

Post by SKirlasvoud » Wed Jul 17, 2013 3:39 pm

If they were truly such basic questions, the game should have answered them. I'm not a dim person. I play the likes of Civilization V, king of Dragon Pass and Anno 2070. That this goes beyond my understanding says more about Reus than it does about me. Taking it a step further and needing to purchase a guide/hand my personal information to third parties to gain that understanding, is definitely a blemage on the part of Abbey games. Its like buying a combi-microwave and paying another tenner for the manual. If I were a more suspicious person, I'd call it a hoax. Fortunaly I'm not and I'm simply calling the game lacking and incomplete.


Thanks though Touriste, for the link. You meant well.

Unless anyone else likes to add info... experimental play it is!


I'll add my findings to the wikia if I can.

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Touriste
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Re: Game is too vague: Questions about aspects and fertiliti

Post by Touriste » Wed Jul 17, 2013 3:46 pm

I have answered some part of your question on Steam Hub and the guide is actually free, that is why I directed you to it.

I guess some people have different logics and yours do not concur (yet) with Reus o/.

SKirlasvoud
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Re: Game is too vague: Questions about aspects and fertiliti

Post by SKirlasvoud » Wed Jul 17, 2013 5:21 pm

Thanks a bunch Touriste! I hadn't checked steam yet. Going there now!



Nothing is free. Leaving my e-mail adress with Gamers Guide comes at the cost of privacy and obscurity.

SKirlasvoud
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Re: Game is too vague: Questions about aspects and fertiliti

Post by SKirlasvoud » Wed Jul 17, 2013 5:55 pm

I take that back. :/

Accusing me of lazy reading and assuming that I'd immidiatly have to know the intricasies of wayward terms of "potent"... well....

You've just given me a very potent opinion of you. To use your language: You think you're lvl 3 and "superior", but you really only have a "basic" aspect. Wish I could boost that, but I'm not much further than I was now.

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Touriste
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Re: Game is too vague: Questions about aspects and fertiliti

Post by Touriste » Wed Jul 17, 2013 9:39 pm

Yes I understand, I was a little too tired this afternoon.
Someone answered on Steam Hub, I will try to answer correctly as well.

Rabbit
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Re: Game is too vague: Questions about aspects and fertiliti

Post by Rabbit » Thu Jul 18, 2013 5:27 pm

You can get a total of 16 ambassadors, 4 for each giant. To get the last 2 you will need to complete "Upgraded great projects". Those are the 4th projects the towns will try to make, and they are the hardest to complete. If you haven't seen these yet, it is possible that your towns are not yet trying to build that high because you haven't unlocked the last level of developments yet, you'll just need to unlock some more achievements and then it'll start happening for you.

All your other questions are stemming from a misunderstanding of the natural source and aspect tiers, so they are pretty easy to answer. I'll explain the natural sources first

Without any ambassadors, you will place normal natural sources. When they become level 2 by picking up the correct ones, you will then place "great" sources (like Great Mackerel for instance). Level 3 will get you "superior" sources. The higher level sources yield more food and such, as well as have more slots for aspects. They are also needed to upgrade to certain other sources. This is where the wiki can really help. For example, if the wiki says that a bear upgrades from a "great wolf" then you can trace that back to find that a great wolf upgrades from a "superior fox" which upgrades from a "superior stoat". This means that you will need level 3 in exotic animals to be able to place that superior stoat and upgrade it all the way to the bear.
You cannot place a high level animal right from the start, you always place the lowest type (the stoat, or the mackerel, etc) and then you upgrade it to the desired type.

For the aspects, it works pretty much the same way as the natural sources, just with different names. When you use an aspect (let's say predator) at level 1, you have a 66% chance to give that source a "lesser predator" aspect, and a 33% chance to give it a "potent predator" aspect. You can think of that as tier one. When you upgrade that aspect to level 2 on your giant by getting the right ambassadors, you will now have a 66% chance to place a potent aspect, and 33% to place a "greater" one. Level 3 gives the chance to get up to "sublime". Using fertility helps raise the chance to higher than 33% of getting the better aspect, but it only helps up to the level that fertility is currently at. Here's an example, If you place Level 3 fertility on a patch, and then cast a level 3 aspect, you have a greater chance at getting a sublime aspect instead of a greater aspect. If you did not use fertility, you would have a 33% chance to get sublime in that same scenario. If Fertility is only at level 2, it will help you get a better chance of obtaining a greater aspect, but it will do nothing to affect your chance of getting a sublime one because the level is too low.

Putting all of that together, if you are trying to get a bear, you would have to place a level 3 exotic animal on forest to get a superior stoat. Then you would have to upgrade that to a superior fox with a predator aspect, and then to a great wolf with more predator aspects. Finally you would need to upgrade that great wolf into a bear with (I believe) 2 sublime predator aspects. So that's level 3 exotic animals, and level 3 predator aspect that you will need. To make it easier to get the sublime aspects, you could also use level 3 fertility (or level 3 monsoon).

Fertility lasts on a patch for 5 minutes. Monsoon hits many patches but doesn't last as long. There are benefits and disadvantages to either and it depends largely on what ambassadors you want to put on those giants as well.

It is impossible to get everything to level 3 in 1 game, you will have to choose which ambassadors to take and that will rule out many possibilities, so plan carefully if you want to maximize your yields (Or don't if you are just playing casually, but I'm assuming you're interested in the strategy aspect of this game)

I hope that's all clear and easy to understand. If you have any more questions you're welcome to ask. But please try to keep in mind that subtleties and meanings are very often lost in text messages and it's easy to perceive slights when none are intended. Be nice to Touriste, he's been very helpful to a lot of people here and he was only trying to help you out as well.

coanda
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Re: Game is too vague: Questions about aspects and fertiliti

Post by coanda » Fri Jul 19, 2013 4:05 pm

SKirlasvoud wrote:So... the whale is a level 3 animal. I already understand that I can probably upgrade my lowly mackerels to being whales, by casting the lvl3 Herd Upgrade on them three times. However, can't I just instantly create whales if I have the Domestic animals at lvl3? This means I'll have far greater ambassador flexibility by just upgrading Domestic Animals in this instance. If it doesn't work like that, then what's the Domestic Animals upgrade for?
No. There are multiple levels of each animal. Upgrading a Mackerel to level 2 gives you a Great Mackerel, with 4 food instead of 2. Upgrading to level 3 gives you a Superior Mackerel with 8 food and 2 aspect slots instead of 1. Changing a source to a different one (via casting aspects) is a different process. For example, you make a Rabbit by casting a Herd aspect on a Chicken, then selecting the upgrade option. If you put a Herd aspect on a Great Chicken then upgraded to rabbit, you would get a Great Rabbit.

Some more advanced sources do not have a level-1 option. In order to create these sources, your base must be high enough as well - to continue the above example, your Great Rabbit could be made into a Wisent, but your regular rabbit could not (because there is no level-1 Wisent source).

Incidentally, 3x herd aspect is not the correct path to go from Mackerel to Whale.
You must start with a Superior Mackerel (created with Domestic Animals 3), because there is no such thing as a level-1 or level-2 whale. Then you have to put a predator or hunt aspect on it, to let you transform the Mackerel to a Seabass. Then you need to put Herd Aspect, of at least Greater caliber (requiring level 2 Herd Aspect ability) to make a Tuna. Then a level-3 Herd Aspect for a Sublime Herd aspect, to permit you to transform your Tuna into a Whale. Or you could take a similar but alternate path through Mackerel - Parrotfish - Marlin - Whale.
What is the difference between a Wolf and a Great Wolf and why do I need Great Wolfs to get bears?

Does a higher level aspect make my wolf great? Do fertilities make my Wolf great?
Explained above.
What is up with fertilities and what is their relation to the aspects, really? Or is there none and is it simply a multiplier? Will a fertility otherwise boost my lvl1 aspect spell into becoming a lvl3? For example, will foxes with fertility, instantly skip wolves into being bears when the predator aspect is cast? If not, why not simply use upgrades?

Do my foxes turn into Great wolves with a fertility hunt aspect?

Do my wolves turn into Great wolves with a fertility hunt aspect?

What is the sequence for turning my foxes into bears then?

Do fertilities only serve to make things great, and if they do, does this mean that fertilities are useless on things that cannot become great?

Aren't improving my aspects supposed to make my things great? The game literalle says so. "Can create greater aspects". Or is that only with fertilities?

Do fertilities expire, or are they locked in after their succesful use?

What's the difference between Ocean giant's Monsoon and Forest Giant's Fertility? Monsoon simply has an Area of Effect? Should I pick one or the other?

What does a lvl 2 fertility do over a lvl 1 fertility?
I'd distinguish between Aspects and fertility. Aspects permit you to upgrade sources to more advanced ones (but don't automatically do so; you can choose to stick with the older one instead). So if you put a potent hunt aspect (or higher) on a Fox, you could upgrade to a boar.

Of course, if you then want to make that boar into a bear you have to start over because there's no such thing as a level-1 bear, bears are only available at level 3. So you can start with level 3 exotic animals, create Superior Stoat, add predator aspect, upgrade to Superior Fox, add potent hunt aspect, upgrade to Superior Boar, add Sublime hunt aspect, upgrade to Bear. There's a few alternate paths to make bears, but that's one of them.

Aspects do not expire. They provide a yield boost, so even if you don't want to upgrade a source it's good to fill out its aspects.

--------------

Fertility (from the Forest Giant Fertility ability, or the Ocean Giant Monsoon ability) is a buff to a tile, not a source. It increases the chance of getting higher-level Aspects when cast on that tile while Fertility is active.

Typically, you have a 2/3 chance of getting a lower-level aspect and a 1/3 chance of a higher-level one. I'm not sure what the exact result is with fertility, but I think it's about inverted - 2/3 chance of a higher level aspect and 1/3 of a lower level. So (for example) with level 2 Herd Aspect, without Fertility you'd have a 67% chance of applying Potent Herd Aspect and a 33% chance of a Greater. With Fertility, that would be 33% of Potent and 67% chance of Greater.

Since some source upgrades require high level aspects, you may not get those aspects on your first try - forcing you to wait out the cooldown on your ability and re-create that source from scratch. If particularly unlucky, you may end up needing to create the exact same source two, three, or four times in a row. Adding a Fertility to the square first makes it much easier to get the higher-level aspects you need early.

Also, higher-level aspects provide a larger yield bonus. So adding Fertility to a tile before you fill up it's aspect slots will generally result in better luck and thus a more productive tile.

Higher-level fertility lets it help with more advanced aspects. For example, Fertility 1 makes Potent aspects more likely instead of Lesser... but doesn't do anything for your chances of getting Greater instead of Potent, or Sublime instead of Greater.

There's no difference between Monsoon-based fertility and Fertility-based fertility. Use whichever one works with your giant upgrades.

Fertility does expire; you should cast it when you're ready to fully fill out the aspects on a tile, then do so and move on. Once the aspects are in place they'll stay even though the fertility will expire.
The game stops giving new ambassadors after 14 of them, but this makes no sense. I have 4 giants! 14 divided by 4 is 3.5 . The wiki states that each giant gets a maximum of four?

Is it impossible to get all the aspects, spells and fertilities to a maximum?
It stops at 16. After you generate 6 ambassadors, you stop getting any ambassadors for level-1 projects. After generating 10 ambassadors, you stop getting ambassadors from level-2 projects; after 14, no ambassadors from level-3 projects either. So to get ambassadors 15 and 16, you must complete level-4 great projects.

And yes, it is impossible to max out all abilities in one game. You have to pick and choose, and in fact that's a lot of the strategy and pre-game planning. You decide what sources you are going to rely on, figure out what ambassadors you need to max those out, then plan your order of ambassador generation to give you the ambassadors you need.

SKirlasvoud
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Re: Game is too vague: Questions about aspects and fertiliti

Post by SKirlasvoud » Mon Jul 22, 2013 8:30 pm

Well, after Touriste's initial answer I got stubborn and resolved to figure it out by myself, but after a day of building towns, gaining ambassadors, puttering about, reloading, starting all over again and getting incredibly weary of that process, I'm happy to see this thread has been expanded.

rabbit wrote:I hope that's all clear and easy to understand. If you have any more questions you're welcome to ask.
Thanks a whole lot for taking the time! That explains (almost) everything. This completely bridges the gap between the tutorial and knowledge like touriste has.

And... that's why there's no "normal" animals at higher levels. I'm going to have to redo all my patches now... I assumed I couldn't get any further because my fertilities or aspects weren't good enough.

So, I can correctly assume this also means that you don't technically need any fertilities? You're simply going to have a harder time at it without them?

This is where the wiki can really help. For example, if the wiki says that a bear upgrades from a "great wolf"
Well, technically the wiki says about wolf in the summary: "Bear with Sublime Exotic or Predator Aspect." But that's not taking the knowledge of "normal", "greater", or "superior" into account... I couldn't figure out what it was on about when I checked the animal pages themselves.

The most correct way of writing that down would be: "Bear, from wolf originating from a lvl-3 exotic animals cast, with a sublime Exotic or Predator Aspect upgrade that only appears on lvl3 versions of these spells with 33% regularity. (Odds improve when nothing less than a lvl3 fertility had been cast beforehand.)

And the wiki grinds all that knowledge down into a 7 word sentence. But, for me its okay now! With your rosetta stone, I'm part of the in-crowd!

If there'd be a fourth part to the tutorial, or a nice, easy wikia page with that knowledge, people like me (whatever that is, fill in for yourself) would be made very happy.

You can get a total of 16 ambassadors, 4 for each giant.
Thought so! No worries, I already tried planning. I simply didn't have the knowledge how all the steps towards the ultimate goal worked.

I like to invest in animals on most my villages, so Sublime Predator, Herd and Hunt is great. I might get away with not investing in either lvl3 Domestic or Exotic animals if I do that and not use any chicken or stout. I want a Uranium mine next to my "+150% technology for minerals next to the druid" swamp project, so if I only use Copper and Aluminium to mineral boost whatever animals need it, I would only need the Sublime Reactives and lvl 3 advanced minerals.

However, since reaction, exotic animals and predator are all on the Swamp giant, things might get too crowded...

Etc. I get it! Important thing is that I can actually start planning now. For me the game is fun again!

Coate wrote:Since some source upgrades require high level aspects, you may not get those aspects on your first try - forcing you to wait out the cooldown on your ability and re-create that source from scratch.
That gives me a nice idea of what its going to be like. :)


touriste wrote:Yes I understand, I was a little too tired this afternoon.
Again, there was/is something of a jump in understanding between you and me. I can do complex games. Usually I comb through the tutorial, manual and when its a world builder, I spend 2 days mapping everything out before I start playing. The basics of bigger titles are very clear and intuitive, information is easy to find, and making the grand 2-day plan come through smoothly over the course of a month is where the fun is at. When there's yet another level of natural complexity that I didn't foresee but logically should have, I'm delighted.
I'm still of the opinion that this game and its wiki however, are still too vague for their own good. The basics aren't that clear, fewer people play it so information is scarcer, and because of that I'm forced to do basic trial and error on stuff I feel I had no way of knowing, which is something I really hate. Think of all that time I could have put towards the perfect world!
But I guess that this is where the slightly lacking indie part of the game is, since the rest is fun. I should have expected that would clash with my need to have control over everything within an hour.

It did have me regretably petulant and irretable...

Rest assured however that I did know you were trying to help, very willing to do so judging by the expedience of your response and by way of what you said, I can respect your amount of knowledge. So, thanks for trying and I have no problem believing rabbit's vouching for you. Despite our differing opinion on the amount of knowledge that should be known, I appreciate it.

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