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Stop overwriting my crucial tiles with challenge buildings!

Wisp
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Re: Stop overwriting my crucial tiles with challenge buildin

Post by Wisp » Mon May 20, 2013 2:08 am

How does the placing for advanced projects work? Will leaving an empy patch 3~5 patches away from the village guarantee that that patch will be used for the project? And if so, what are the exact placement requrements, because if that was told in say, a tutourial, or a hint in-game, I wouldn't have a problem with it. Since I don't really have a problem with normal project placement either.

Metafysik
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Re: Stop overwriting my crucial tiles with challenge buildin

Post by Metafysik » Mon May 20, 2013 2:13 am

valmlor wrote:annoying? I would say it is a very bad mistake that's making the game very frustrating and barely playable after a while. I cant believe anyone at Abbey thoutgh of that earlier, didnt you playtest it? make me think about bad 90 nes game....
To call this game "barely playable" and insinuating that the developers diddn't playtest their game enough is kinda rude. Indie games like Reus are made by very few people who pour their effort into a project which can sometimes take several years and I'm pretty sure that the developers have taken lots and lots of time making sure there aren't any issues in their game which would ruin the experience for their customers.

Besides, I don't consider this nuance to be gamebreaking whatsoever, I simply adapt and learn how to work around the humans' stupidity XD. Instead of cramping a village near the ocean or another village (unless I want a fishing village or war) I plan the terrain around where I want my village to be beforehand (and yes I can control where villages are going to be placed within a margin of 1 tile always it just takes a bit of clever thinking). So when my village is placed and I have a bunch of resources around it and they decide to put a project randomly within the borders, its not irritating to me if they place it over a resource that I liked because I can just place new resources and adapt depending on the project that they dropped.

This can be annoying sure, but I think you are overreacting if you think this makes the game "unplayable". I have played this game for 20 hours now and enjoyed every second, even if I was getting frustrated with the humans stupidity, I had fun learning how to compensate and adapt. I have completed 50 challenges now and all of them are easily accomplished if you put your mind to it.

Spyre2k
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Re: Stop overwriting my crucial tiles with challenge buildin

Post by Spyre2k » Mon May 20, 2013 11:15 pm

I think the main problem with project placement and the games Symbiosis mechanic is that most projects have little to no interaction with it. And that is because there seem to be 3 types of Bonuses projects give.

The first type is indeed a symbiosis style bonus and can work well but sometimes falls short. For example Holy Animals specialization on Temple gives Bonus Food and Wealth to each animal in range 2. At first this sounds good, until you realize that most of the time the temple is placed 1 space away from the village. This means that 1 of those 4 bonus tiles is lost in the village. But this first type of bonus is extremely rare to begin with so it rarely comes up.

The second type which which makes up the vast majority of bonuses is bonus based on type within village borders. This type can be general Animal/Plant/Mineral or a specific A/P/M. But because it has no interaction with adjacent tiles it's often best left next to the village to minimize it's impact on Symbiosis of other resources. But since you do not get to pick it's location it's placement is often found to be intrusive and frustrating.

The third type of bonus is very rare and only appears on Great Projects from what I've seen. These are world wide bonuses. They give bonuses either to all resources of curtain type or bring in extra resources based on how many of that resource exist in the world. These have the same problem as type two though in that their location is pointless and only serve to block Symbiosis between your other resources.


It would be nice to see some intelligent placement of the projects by the humans, of course this is not entirely possible given the current project & upgrade system. For example the Temple I mentioned earlier is an upgraded Shrine which has 2 possible upgrades and Temple has 2 possible specializations. So that's a 25% Chance of it mattering if the Temple is adjacent to the village or not. And there is no Type 1 bonus on the Shrine so that means the villagers would have to know way in advance they were going to do the Temple Upgrade with Holy Animals specialization when placing it at the very start of their founding.

In order to really address the issue though, you pretty much need to give every project a adjacent bonuses. Or have them simply place the project next to the village.

Personally I think having every project have it's own adjacent bonuses instead of the village wide ones makes for a more interesting game session. This will add to the variety of each play through as well given that players need now deal with the additional Symbiosis options from that buildings. As it stands now I usually pick a plant or animal that has ranged Symbiosis effect so it can interact with the resource on the other side of the project, this has me often using the same setup over and over around project locations.

Mehbah
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Re: Stop overwriting my crucial tiles with challenge buildin

Post by Mehbah » Tue May 21, 2013 6:55 pm

If nothing else, you could make it so that the humans pick out two spots where they will build the project and then the giants get to pick which one they choose. That would keep the random aspect while giving the player some control.

Alternatively, make them put any projects at the edge of the village. There they screw up your symbioses the least, and it only makes sense.

Two ideas in case you don't want to change things up too much.

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saikun
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Re: Stop overwriting my crucial tiles with challenge buildin

Post by saikun » Wed May 22, 2013 3:07 pm

Well I like the humans being stubborn, unpredictable and unfair, just as they are. Should they be predictable and do all the time what they're expected to?

Really, I don't get why is there so much hate with this game. It's not even constructive critics, just plain hate. If the game is not 100% what you expected, or the way you'd do it, just get on with it and develop a game, or just dont' play it, nobody is forcing you, it's not 24/7 on the tv, radio, gaming websites...

Mehbah
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Re: Stop overwriting my crucial tiles with challenge buildin

Post by Mehbah » Wed May 22, 2013 9:35 pm

saikun wrote:Well I like the humans being stubborn, unpredictable and unfair, just as they are. Should they be predictable and do all the time what they're expected to?

Really, I don't get why is there so much hate with this game. It's not even constructive critics, just plain hate. If the game is not 100% what you expected, or the way you'd do it, just get on with it and develop a game, or just dont' play it, nobody is forcing you, it's not 24/7 on the tv, radio, gaming websites...
Are you illiterate? Practically everything in the thread has been discussion and/or constructive criticism. The OP expressed his frustration about a gameplay aspect in a very mild way, and the rest of the thread has been calm discussion and suggestions on how to improve the game. No, constructive criticism is not the same thing as being overly positive and pretending that something is perfect. I realize that that is what a whole lot of stupid people think constructive criticism is, but they are wrong. Criticism doesn't even need to be polite to be constructive.

Seriously, stop posting. Your presence is poisonous. You contribute nothing. That someone isn't 100% satisfied with a product does not mean that they shouldn't voice their opinion or suggestions. Hell, it's the very opposite, because anyone that cannot find anything that can be improved in something is intellectually sterile. If everyone just smiled and nodded and went "everything is perfect :) dissenters should be quieted" like you want, this forum would be completely pointless.

Szei
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Re: Stop overwriting my crucial tiles with challenge buildin

Post by Szei » Wed May 22, 2013 10:13 pm

Wisp wrote:How does the placing for advanced projects work? Will leaving an empy patch 3~5 patches away from the village guarantee that that patch will be used for the project? And if so, what are the exact placement requrements, because if that was told in say, a tutourial, or a hint in-game, I wouldn't have a problem with it. Since I don't really have a problem with normal project placement either.

Can anyone answer this? If I have an empty patch are the humans more likely to use it?

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Adriaan
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Re: Stop overwriting my crucial tiles with challenge buildin

Post by Adriaan » Wed May 22, 2013 10:58 pm

Take it easy people. No need for getting angry. I'm the one who has to do all the work, innit? ;)

On topic, I'm kind of torn in what exactly to do, so probably this is going to an opinion thread soon. :P

Spyre2k
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Re: Stop overwriting my crucial tiles with challenge buildin

Post by Spyre2k » Thu May 23, 2013 7:21 pm

Honestly I think the Challenge system and their placement could use a bit of an over haul.

I'll start with the placement, As mentioned in a previous post there are 3 types of specializations a building can have, Type 1 Local, Type 2 is Village Wide, and Type 3 is Global. The village should be smart about it's placement of these depending on their specialization.

If it is a local specialization it should attempt to place it in a location to maximize the number of adjacent slots which could take advantage of it. Thus if it has bonus to plants or minerals it should not place it next to the ocean if possible.

If it's Village or Global specialization then it should try to place it right next to the village or several tiles away. It should, if possible, not take up one of the tiles from the local specialization projects and be at least 2+ from village if it's not next to it to ensure some Symbiosis setups can be places between them.


Now as for the Changes to the actual challenge system itself. I don't really like how there is a very limited number of upgrades. It ends up making the whole thing feel very linear as I often find myself going for the same challenges over and over. My guess is that space constrains were the reason you opted to do upgrades instead of simply added another project building. After all 4 tiles being used up for projects can be a lot.

It would be rather nice though to have them be separate projects though which allow for more variety in the challenges that appear. When it comes to the great projects as soon as you get it you know what the next project is going to be because they only have 1 upgrade path. The only possible differences is the specialization bonus provided. Which makes late game very predictable as you just need to go for a really high value in whatever resource you picked.

For example say you get the Hamlet as you great Project, well you know right away your village needs to go heavy food because Castle is now on the list. The only real concern is which specialization bonuses it has to help get that 1250 food amount which you know is coming. But if instead the Tier 4 Project could be some of the others it would allow for a lot more variety.

I do like the idea of tiles adjacent to the project being more valuable. However this basically calls for a major overhaul of the specializations on the Projects. Since placement of the project occurs only at Tier 1 and Tier 3 of projects I think it would be best to focus on those specializations. Perhaps have it to where the specialization system looks something as follows.

Project : Local
Upgraded Project : Village
Great Project : Local/Village
Upgraded Great Project : Village/Global

This way when the buildings it knows if there is going to be a specialization which only effects the adjacent tiles. If the specialization comes after the placement, during the upgrade, then it would be easy to end up with a project that is in a bad location and can't take full advantage of their symbiosis bonuses.

It was also discussed previously that villagers don't pick projects based on the resources that are present because it would allow the player to easily shape the village's path and quickly become repetitive as the player builds the same thing over and over. However it would be nice if the villagers at least picked projects, and especially specializations, that actually work well together.

Sometime you get specializations where it's really hard to take full advantage of both, or do so leaves rather weak to non-existent symbiosis setups in the village. There were even cases where I simply had to ignore trying to get the specialization bonuses because I lost out on too much symbiosis benefits.

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Adriaan
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Re: Stop overwriting my crucial tiles with challenge buildin

Post by Adriaan » Thu May 23, 2013 10:19 pm

I kind of decided what to do with the dead patches. Spyre2k, you put on some valid points, and I can promise more challenges coming soon. I'll have to think about more level 4 challenges a little bit longer though. ;)

With the dead patches: I'm going to remove them. Making adjacency bonusses overcrowded the (early game) UI, while it probably wouldn't scale good enough to actually be fun for the better player. So they're moving out!

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