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do coal bonuses stack?

puke
Posts: 26
Joined: Sun May 19, 2013 11:31 pm

Re: do coal bonuses stack?

Post by puke » Fri May 24, 2013 5:08 am

That looks optimum for total global prosperity, but if your talking about prosperity for a village then the max number of copper is bound by what will fit within the borders. Everything else should be coal, minus what is required to activate it.

Unfortuneaty it took over half my game to enable the upgrades required to get to coal, so I'd be looking at having to nuke the world and rebuild with desert towns so as not to waste the space on oceans. the time tables involved dont look like it is feasable, but other people might be better at powerleveling than I am.

Still, probably Saturday one way or the other.

Kalil
Posts: 45
Joined: Wed May 22, 2013 6:22 am

Re: do coal bonuses stack?

Post by Kalil » Fri May 24, 2013 9:22 am

Dunam wrote:Sooo... the humans don't start projects in your perfect world?

You lose another six squares to that.
Nope. And players don't use aspects, projects don't give bonuses, the neighbor symbiosis for Coal is never triggered, greed doesn't exist, and six villages are necessary to girdle the world. Is called a 'model'. The only question I was really trying to answer was 'what ratio of Coal to Copper is optimum' - I was actually surprised it came out to 50/50. The prosperity estimate was a bonus, showing the potential of the build. It's clearly a lower bound, mathematically, but also probably impractical due to greed issues and time constraints in a real 120 minute game (though it should be doable in Freeplay).
puke wrote:That looks optimum for total global prosperity, but if your talking about prosperity for a village then the max number of copper is bound by what will fit within the borders. Everything else should be coal, minus what is required to activate it.
This is true - but I figured that since you're required to maintain other villages (does anyone know precisely how many villages it takes to utilize the entire world?), you'd want to maximize their prosperity as well. The math for a single village is a lot simpler - assuming that it grabs ~ 1/6th of the world, then it'd cover around 17 spaces, -4 for the village itself, +1 since you'd probably use your largest and the borders would be even, -2 for projects, so call it 14 copper. Shrink the world to 69 free squares (-7 projects, -24 village bases), that leaves 55 squares for coal. That'd be 1150 P per copper, for 16100 P on your single village.

Beats my high score twice over.

User avatar
Dunam
Posts: 113
Joined: Tue Apr 30, 2013 11:55 pm

Re: do coal bonuses stack?

Post by Dunam » Fri May 24, 2013 1:59 pm

With enough time and prosperity I think 6 villages can have border to border the entire world. Borders get insane with high prosperity & time.

And I like your model estimate.

coanda
Posts: 54
Joined: Wed May 22, 2013 3:46 am

Re: do coal bonuses stack?

Post by coanda » Fri May 24, 2013 2:18 pm

5 villages can fill the world, given time. It's 20 tiles per village, which means you need borders reaching out 8 tiles on each side from the village. You'll see that happen with some villages around 100 minutes in, if border pressure isn't cramping them.
6 villages can fill it in about an hour. It's just a 6-tile reach for most of the villages, with a couple 7-tile reaches.
7 villages is over-crowded. You lose a lot of tiles you could be working otherwise, and don't get as much space to work with for synergy bonuses. It'll fill up quite quickly, too - you could probably be working every tile in the world in less than an hour.

4 villages... I'm really hoping can eventually fill the world, or at least get a 10-tile reach in each direction eventually. If not, my current freeplay game may end up with far less prosperity than I hoped. But I don't know if it will work out, and certainly wouldn't recommend it for a time-limited game.

smithay
Posts: 17
Joined: Mon May 20, 2013 4:06 am

Re: do coal bonuses stack?

Post by smithay » Fri May 24, 2013 3:30 pm

I have filled the world with 3 villages, i believe that to be the optimal long term strategy. Although 4 is also an option if you can find good great project bonuses.

Spyre2k
Posts: 21
Joined: Mon May 20, 2013 8:57 pm

Re: do coal bonuses stack?

Post by Spyre2k » Fri May 24, 2013 6:00 pm

Personally I think 6 villages starting out is always the optimal strategy. It allows you to get your advisers a lot faster so you can move up to the level 3 upgrades. After that you can demo the extra villages to allow more room to grow for your other villages.

With 6 villages you just do Project upgrade on all the villages, which is easy because it's less than 100 in specific resource. Then you only need to do 4 Great projects which is simply 300 in curtain resources. You don't have to worry about getting the upgraded great projects, some of which have 1250 resource requirement.

Kalil
Posts: 45
Joined: Wed May 22, 2013 6:22 am

Re: do coal bonuses stack?

Post by Kalil » Fri May 24, 2013 9:35 pm

Dunam wrote:With enough time and prosperity I think 6 villages can have border to border the entire world. Borders get insane with high prosperity & time.
Just did a quick test - ran a 30 minute game with two desert towns on opposite sides of a 100% desert planet. One, I upgraded (nothing fancy, just a pile of quartz). The other I left with only the single lonely quartz stack that drew its hapless nomad in the first place.
The one with 10 total prosperity kept slightly ahead of the one with 100 prosperity for the entire game.

So it looks like time (and possibly terrain? will test that in my next game) is the only factor in village growth.

puke
Posts: 26
Joined: Sun May 19, 2013 11:31 pm

Re: do coal bonuses stack?

Post by puke » Fri May 24, 2013 10:04 pm

Kalil wrote:So it looks like time (and possibly terrain? will test that in my next game) is the only factor in village growth.
Was one near mountains? those are supposed to slow growth as well as armies.

Might try a tri-city test:

city one: mountain valley

city two: desert one side, mountain on the other

city three: desert plains both sides.

I'd be especially curious to see if city two had lopsided growth.

Kalil
Posts: 45
Joined: Wed May 22, 2013 6:22 am

Re: do coal bonuses stack?

Post by Kalil » Fri May 24, 2013 10:20 pm

puke wrote:
Kalil wrote:So it looks like time (and possibly terrain? will test that in my next game) is the only factor in village growth.
Was one near mountains? those are supposed to slow growth as well as armies.
Nope - in my test game, I was careful to interrupt my rock giant before he produced any mountain tiles, so I had a 100% desert map.
puke wrote:Might try a tri-city test:

city one: mountain valley

city two: desert one side, mountain on the other

city three: desert plains both sides.

I'd be especially curious to see if city two had lopsided growth.
That's pretty much what I'm planning to do, yah. Will need to wait a bit, though - am 'working' for the next several hours.
The other set of tests I'd like to run is to build a single town on a 120 minute game, and 'check' on it every couple minutes, to chart out the time-to-grow. It'd be /really/ nice to get the actual formula (*looks hopefully at Adriaan*), but I might be able to reverse engineer it. If mountains do in fact hinder growth, then I'll try with two cities on opposite sides of the world, with one side of the planet covered in rough terrain.

Other things to test: do oceans hinder growth by the same factor as mountains? What about 'wrong terrain' - a desert down growing over swamp, for example. Once we know the approximate base formula, these should be fairly easy to test.

EDIT: Oh, another question about rough terrain: does the city care about terrain already within its borders, or does it only care about the new terrain it is growing over? The quick test for this would be to let a city grow up to 5 range, then plant a mountain range within its borders, and see if it slows down.

smithay
Posts: 17
Joined: Mon May 20, 2013 4:06 am

Re: do coal bonuses stack?

Post by smithay » Fri May 24, 2013 10:38 pm

So prosperity does not affect border growth? Interesting.

If you go coal-copper-coal-copper over 70 squares you get 35*35*20+35*20+35*40 prosperity, 26K.
But how does the 'kindle' symbiosis work has any one tested this?

kindle: +10 gold + 10 tech -1 awe for each awe within 2 squares.

Now suppose i put 2 coal next to each other both with seizmic aspect, +1 awe. What happens here? its like a paradox as there is seemingly no way to resolve it correctly. If you put 70 of these next to each other you might well get some crazy chain reaction everytime you add awe to them.

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