Abbey Games has a new community and forums! Come on over to https://community.abbeygames.com and don't forget to mention your old username! The old forums will remain available, but read-only.

Top Score Strategies

User avatar
Dunam
Posts: 113
Joined: Tue Apr 30, 2013 11:55 pm

Re: Top Score Strategies

Post by Dunam » Sun May 26, 2013 6:49 am

25400/80 = 317 per square. Not as good as oil, which with 80 squares would give 80*5=400 prosperity per square. It also has the added bonus of being more flexible, even the first oil gives that amount of prosperity.

User avatar
Adriaan
Posts: 739
Joined: Wed Nov 28, 2012 5:18 pm

Re: Top Score Strategies

Post by Adriaan » Sun May 26, 2013 10:27 am

Wow, that coal is insane. I don't know really what's the problem here: Coal being to much, or giant hunting being to easy to avoid? What would you say Dunam?

Kalil
Posts: 45
Joined: Wed May 22, 2013 6:22 am

Re: Top Score Strategies

Post by Kalil » Sun May 26, 2013 10:59 am

Adriaan wrote:Wow, that coal is insane. I don't know really what's the problem here: Coal being too much, or giant hunting being to easy to avoid? What would you say Dunam?
I would say it's definitely an issue with the strength of that x20 multiplier.
Simply alternating tea-tea-coal-tea-tea-tea-tea-coal-tea-tea grants... 85 awe per tea plant.. 4 plants per coal.. 20P per awe... 6800P per coal, for 1360P per tile, from the awe conversion symbiosis alone.
As I posted above, the nearest comparables have a multiplier of 2 (Hemp). It also dwarfs any possible bonii from aspects to outright irrelevance, which I suspect is contra to design goals.
I'd be very sad if Coal got nerfed before I even unlocked it (I haven't actually had time to run a non-test game since I posted that score on the scores thread.. 3 days ago), but it's pretty clearly over-strong. And we still haven't explored the coal/copper path... The math on that was pretty frightening, too, although not as much so as this.

I don't know your design vision, but it seems to me that giant-hunting should be a hindrance, not something that should stop you cold. It pretty clearly did slow Dunam down here, and I doubt I could manage it in an Era game, although it'd be fun to slowly explore this strategy in a freeplay game.

EDIT: It's possible Coal is even stronger than I gave it credit for, but I don't know how overlapping coal ranges interact - can two coal mines gain bonus from the same awe source? If so, does that drive your awe negative? And if so, can you be in permagreed, even when your resources are at parity?

Grrr... Now I really want to unlock coal. So many things to test!

User avatar
Adriaan
Posts: 739
Joined: Wed Nov 28, 2012 5:18 pm

Re: Top Score Strategies

Post by Adriaan » Sun May 26, 2013 11:14 am

Kalil wrote:Grrr... Now I really want to unlock coal. So many things to test!
You got a bit less than one week before the nerfhammer drops!

Also, my problem seems to be that to a good player, giant hunting is just a minor annoyance because it's so easy to kite it. Coal was designed to be a real troublemaker: making your city so big that it would engulf all other cities or to at least form a serious threat to all giants. However, the AI of greed is so simple and predictable, that you could just kite the mob with the Rock giant (he will survive a few seconds anyways), and then just ocean giant the hell out of it.

I'm thinking about making the mob a bit more sneaky: like, not attacking directly when they're in range, but when they're in good position. >:)
That surely would make for a few more angry gamers.

coanda
Posts: 54
Joined: Wed May 22, 2013 3:46 am

Re: Top Score Strategies

Post by coanda » Sun May 26, 2013 11:20 am

DAMN, nerfing coal before I got a chance to use it with my great tea leaves. I had a map layout that was going to score over 150k score. Could probably have pushed it over 200k, but was trying to avoid greed by using danger, which used up half the map on great white sharks.

Tea-Tea-Coal-Tea-Tea-Coal-....

Each tea except the outer 2 on each side worth 110 awe, on each of two different coal, for 20 prosperity per awe each coal (4400-gold 4400-tech coal seams).

Kalil
Posts: 45
Joined: Wed May 22, 2013 6:22 am

Re: Top Score Strategies

Post by Kalil » Sun May 26, 2013 12:23 pm

Adriaan wrote:
Kalil wrote:Grrr... Now I really want to unlock coal. So many things to test!
You got a bit less than one week before the nerfhammer drops!
What are you thinking for nerfs? With the awe penalty and the high tier, it does deserve to be a little better than comparables, but not 20 times better - which is currently the case (Hemp is 2xAwe over 2 tiles, Coal is 10xAwe over 4 tiles). Given its other bonii and synergies, I'd think maybe drop it to +4 Wealth and +4 Tech per awe on neighboring tiles? That'd make it a x8 bonus instead of an effective x40. Alternately, could do +2/+2 over range 2, which'd make the awe hit more noticeable, and would again effectively be x8 (instead of x40). That'd drop my tea example down to 272P per tile from the synergy, which is 'in line' with some of the other options (a full map gives Oil ~370P from its +5/Resource synergy).
Coanda wrote:Tea-Tea-Coal-Tea-Tea-Coal-....

Each tea except the outer 2 on each side worth 110 awe, on each of two different coal, for 20 prosperity per awe each coal (4400-gold 4400-tech coal seams).
Do multiple Coal play nicely when covering the same awe source, then? That does buff them. Although... I'm not sure where you're getting 110 awe from - the central Tea plants only 'see' two other tea plants within 2 range, for 60 Awe. Can Leaf Aspect get them up to 25 Natura for the range bonus?
Last edited by Kalil on Sun May 26, 2013 12:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

coanda
Posts: 54
Joined: Wed May 22, 2013 3:46 am

Re: Top Score Strategies

Post by coanda » Sun May 26, 2013 12:25 pm

Kalil wrote: Do multiple Coal play nicely when covering the same awe source, then? That does buff them. Significantly.
I don't know if I'd call it "nicely"... you'll have massively negative awe for your village. But you also get good prosperity, so if you're prepared to use danger (or just run away) to deal with it...

Kalil
Posts: 45
Joined: Wed May 22, 2013 6:22 am

Re: Top Score Strategies

Post by Kalil » Sun May 26, 2013 12:37 pm

coanda wrote:
Kalil wrote: Do multiple Coal play nicely when covering the same awe source, then? That does buff them. Significantly.
I don't know if I'd call it "nicely"... you'll have massively negative awe for your village. But you also get good prosperity, so if you're prepared to use danger (or just run away) to deal with it...
Does negative awe (below -20) result in greed continuing to rise even when all your resources are capped? That'd be awkward...

User avatar
VDZ
Posts: 31
Joined: Wed May 22, 2013 8:27 am

Re: Top Score Strategies

Post by VDZ » Sun May 26, 2013 1:40 pm

Adriaan wrote:
Kalil wrote:Grrr... Now I really want to unlock coal. So many things to test!
You got a bit less than one week before the nerfhammer drops!

Also, my problem seems to be that to a good player, giant hunting is just a minor annoyance because it's so easy to kite it. Coal was designed to be a real troublemaker: making your city so big that it would engulf all other cities or to at least form a serious threat to all giants. However, the AI of greed is so simple and predictable, that you could just kite the mob with the Rock giant (he will survive a few seconds anyways), and then just ocean giant the hell out of it.
Giant hunting and wars can be real problems, though only if the village is really strong; during the last four minutes of my record 30-minute game, I had to repeatedly reload because either my giants died or the villages destroyed each other. However, that was before I found out you could just Raise Mountain or Create Ocean on the village to punish them into humility. With those two abilities, it might indeed be too easy to distract the mob with one giant and punish them with the other; the difficulty would increase significantly if you could only punish the village by using Earthquake or Muck Bomb or destroying their armies. Or perhaps you could make it so you'll only punish them by destroying their armies; doing so will damage your resources every time you smash them (unless you smash them right away, which is usually not possible), so angry mobs would definitely be a thing to avoid.

EDIT:
Adriaan wrote:I'm thinking about making the mob a bit more sneaky: like, not attacking directly when they're in range, but when they're in good position. >:)
That surely would make for a few more angry gamers.
While this would definitely make them more annoying, I'm afraid it won't do anything balance-wise. My giants already die occasionally in these scenarios (if I didn't see them coming in time), and the solution is to simply reload and walk away before they get to you. It would force me to reload more often, which is frustrating but would not make me change my tactics in any way, simply resulting in less fun gameplay.

User avatar
VDZ
Posts: 31
Joined: Wed May 22, 2013 8:27 am

Re: Top Score Strategies

Post by VDZ » Sun May 26, 2013 2:17 pm

Oh, I just was thinking about this: When two villages go to war, the village sends their army, and after it is defeated and the enemy army reaches their village, the village itself shoots arrows at the enemy army to defend itself. Why isn't this the case with giants?

I think the whole thing would be more challenging if, in addition to sending out an army to actively kill one giant, the village itself would attack any giant (not just the one they're chasing) that dares to come near (treating it as if it were an enemy army; after all, you're about to smash them). Raise Mountain and Create Ocean would become significantly less effective, as they take a long time to use and would therefore cause a lot of damage to the giant using it. While attacking the village would still work to punish them into humility, killing their armies would become more practical. Instead of not allowing the player to attack the village, you can just strongly discourage them from doing so.

Post Reply